You are such a fundamentally decent human being. Thank you for all of your efforts. You played a big role in my early days of researching this stuff even before I was here on Stack.
I have thought about the deception of Santa, too. It was fun as a child, but I was devastated when my mother told me the truth. Not because I was sad about Santa not being real, but because she had lied to me. I felt betrayed. Trust was ruptured. It healed over quickly, of course, but encouraging parents to tell lies to children doesn't seem like a healthy practice for psychological and emotional development, especially considering that trust issues can run deep and impact relationships throughout your life.
I went to live with my grandparents when I was six. My grandmother promptly told me that there was no Santa Claus. My young friends thought I was lying and that I was crazy. It was good early training on the consequences of being a conspiracy theorist.
that is why we should not tell kids these nonsense stories. Isn't the return of the LIght reason for a feast enough? and presents, well, why would mom and dad not be ablte to give them ! No lies.
My mother told me I would birth a watermelon if I persisted in eating the seeds instead of spitting them. I was 6 and had swallowed probably 50. I worried for a whole summer about growing a watermelon in my stomach. Still mad. Haha.
That was my grandmother. Even at age six, I was wondering how in the heck worms got into raw potatoes in the first place, and why wouldn't you see them?
The worms crawl in the worms crawl out, in your body and out of your mouth. Whenever you see a hurse go bye you know that someday you are going to die.
I was reading a story about worms to my 2.5 year old granddaughter tonight and starting reflexively singing that song. Hah. Caught myself.
Best for whom? I have absolutely Z-E-R-O problem with nightshade family foods. Speak for yourself before making such wildly general blanket "truisms." Sheesh-- I thought everyone learned that one back in high school, but apparently not, judging from how this country votes...
Yeah but it's not an outrageous lie at all and your doubts were unfounded. Also from eating uncooked vegetables, for example, you can get worms if it got contaminated with a grazing animal's droppings.
I hope that you didn't think I was being glib! I wasn't. I think parents do not realize the importance of truth and forthrightness. Parents sometimes forget they are the shield protecting them. If the shield chips...
Thanks for sharing Margaret. I agree that lying to children is not something to take lightly. If we’re lying about Santa, what else are we lying about?
My parents never told me that Santa was real and I grew up feeling sorry for kids whose parents lied to them. I also don’t teach the myth to my kids. They know he’s a made up character who does cool stuff, kinda like the avengers.
I’ve been on a journey of awakening for about as long as I can remember. A big part of it is gaining a true understanding of what is true wealth - where does it lie and how do we acquire it. When we can stop, breathe and appreciate, at this moment we become instantly fulfilled…. And isn’t this what we all aspire for. The things I treasure the most are the ones that were given to me with sincere love; and the times I’ve given my time attention energy etc toward the supreme being that is running this show are when I’ve felt closest to the heart.
Much like what Jesus said on his Sermon on the Mount. It can be found in the New Testament of the Bible in the book of Matthew chapters 5-7. When you study what things like "poor in spirit" and "meek" mean, it is very convicting. Helps you right the ship.
Agreed. I have come to believe that the Santa myth is quite sinister.
At an early age we are told about a magical powerful being that knows what you are thinking, whether you have been bad or good, bestows gifts or unpleasantries (coal) depending on your behaviour.
Then you learn he is a lie.
Who else do you know with very similar attributes….God.
What does that breed in children but a suspicion that God is also a lie. Fool me once….
So we set up our children on a hard path away from God.
Then there are the other facets of “Santa’”, anagram for Satan. Satan Claws. Yes and what is Satan’s greatest trick. Why it’s to make men believe he does not exist.
Interesting. I grew up in Germany of dutch parents that lived through a war of course, but my dad worked for the US blah blah blah. We never believed in Santa at Christmas !!!
It was not until we moved to the US that I learned of him, I was 11 years old when we came to the US
St Nicholas or Sinterklaas came on December 6 and was a completely different meaning and the beloved Zwarte Piet as well!
I know that my dear hubby grew up in the mid west and Santa was a big deal. I can imagine the devastation!!!
indeed ! In Belgium where I grew up, we had Santa on December 6, which is also my birthday, and the legend we were told was of a saint (who might or might not be real) He saved 3 children from a gruesome death, I think they were thrown in an oven. At Christmas, we did not exchange presents. We did give presents for New Year though, and Sinterklaas was mostly for sweets and candy. I remember getting a mixed present for the obvious reason - two in one!
I have read so many stories about people who feel the same way about discovering the truth. We never did Santa with our daughter. We just never wanted to deceive her - plus, we wanted the emphasis to be on Christ. She still enjoyed seeing Santa in cartoons, etc... but she knew that Santa was just a character like SpongeBob or Clifford. She is now a staunch conservative who is suspicious of all government entities. No Santa was a good idea in our house :-)
Gift giving was created. Same as Valentine’s Day. For some “Hallmark Holidays “. And for some a reminder to show appreciation for those you love. Those who don’t like them may not show appreciation. Maybe the only time that significant other gets acknowledged. They do serve a purpose. Maybe not everyone needs them. But some do.
Yes. I’m afraid to say Santa myth is not great for many children who grow up thinking about presents at Xmas as a substitute for the loss of innocence caused by the realisation that those closest to you will lie to you again snd again even when you suspect that there is a lie.
Satan Claws is my take on him. The deceiver takes your faith away.
My wife thinks I’m nuts whenever I tell her this but it correlates well with the slow decay in belief in Christ.
That experience may have made you who you are - adults don't always tell the truth. Not then and not now.
I recall my daughter (~5 or 6 years) asking is Santa real? And I said what do you think? She said he might not be real, just like the tooth fairy. And I simply told the story of how Santa came to be. That Santa was just a mythical figure to bring us joy. We believe in the spirit of Santa and a tradition. Cookies continued to be put out for Santa for many years afterwards. I have no idea what she told her kids who may have their own maybe.
Agreed. Very young kids are very trusting because they're so completely helpless and dependent on adults for their survival. They do and want to believe in goodness and kindness, that someone special IS looking out for their best interests. They need that kind of trustworthiness from the people who are around them. Kids start noticing the "joke" some time around second or third grade. I found out at school. It was something groups of kids at school would discuss and I think older kids would make fun of younger kids who still believed in Santa Claus. I wondered "why all the pretense, can't we just say it's a special time of year when we all show kindness and give one another gifts in the spirit of Christmas?" Mostly I felt like I wanted to know the psychology of adults who had this need to tell kids this myth, why would they do such a thing, en masse?
In a way I think it's a kind of annual mass psychosis.
Yes, I too was bothered by the "deception" when I found out Santa wasn't real. So when I had kids, I told them the story of the historical St Nicholas and told them at Christmas, we like to pretend he is still around, still giving gifts to the children. So we kept the fun of Santa without the deception. Worked for us!
Great idea. Alas too late for me but maybe when 'the conversation' is had finally, I can share that so my boys have the choice to do that when if they go on to have children. I didn't know about St Nicholas until after we had started.
I think the problem is that today we have divorced the Santa Claus myth from the greater religious celebration that occurred during the holidays. The Santa Claus myth blended into the religious event of God made Man at the birth of Jesus, which is something else that requires belief. There are many other stories and myths surrounding Christmas that are part of our old European culture and many other cultures. To understand the Santa Claus myth, you must understand its origins within Christianity. However, standing alone in a modern, post-Christian culture it obviously appears to be an incongruous conspiracy theory. Taken out of context it makes no sense, just as myriad genders and "celebrating diversity" would make no sense 150 years ago. The Santa Claus myth is a type of cultural symbolism relevant mostly to Western Christianity.
The way everyone else does. Sheesh. So you'd think Bible study is worthless. Well, either you're just plain dumb or you're dumb on purpose while pretending to drop us your pearls of "wisdom."
The Santa Claus myth is not a religious ritual unto itself. It must be anchored to a value system. 200 years ago St. Nick (German: Nicklaus=Klaus=Claus) was firmly anchored in Christianity. Since that time the anchor has switched to commercial materialism. Christmas and Santa Claus can't stand by themselves. They will always be subject to the current zeitgeist and cast in it's image. In the future it may shift to something else - my bet is state politics. With a few changes, Santa has all the hallmarks of a children's myth for autoritarian governments as an agent of the state: He know what everyone does and he has a list. He rewards the good obedient people by giving them free stuff. He no longer has a magical workshop at the North Pole, but instead has a magical money creating workshop in Washington DC. The same belief and obedience lessons that Igor says motivate the original Santa Claus myth can also motivate the political one.
Interesting take on the future of Santa. But all religious festivals ar subject to the zeitgeist. Thing is, religious festivals don't really need anchors, much less Christian ones. They're just things people continue doing.
I disagree. All religious festivals need anchors, otherwise they dissappear. There are thousands of religious festivals that have disappeared. You can find plenty of them in Roman and Greek literature. Festivals remain if they change to the new anchors as the cultures change. Even though it remains relevant, Christmas has moved from a pagan winter solstice ritual, to a Christian ritual, to a Commercial Materialist ritual. My point about Santa Claus is that in the future it could switch anchors to become a Political Materialist ritual. A change in anchors results in a change in MEANING. If you were ask young people today and young people 200 years ago if they knew what Christmas was, they would all say yes. But if you asked them the MEANING of Christmas, the two groups would give you very different answers. The anchor, and thus the underlying values represented by the ritual have changed. There are certain religious archetypes that are repeated throught almost all cultures that never really go away such as remembrance of the dead. If a religious ritual is important enough, it will be shifted to a new anchor or recreated as a culture changes.
"Thing is, religious festivals don't really need anchors, much less Christian ones. They're just things people continue doing." You're talking to yourself here. Because for the most part the people "continue doing" religious festivals understand why they repeat the rituals. If you know anything about Catholicism and the Mass, you'd know exactly what that means..
In Uber-capitalistic countries, of course-- they'd also find a way to pickle and commercialize your skin cancers. I mean, "they're" already getting farmers to cover their farm land with sewage sludge! Then you eat the food grown there? Ya suppose? I think you can figure out what I'm sayin.'
Yes I wrote a post somewhere up there, where the tradition originates from. Well they do, BUT if everyone knew that he's actually a Roman Catholic bishop[ that existed, it would probably be considered politically incorrect and inappropriate. :) So it's probably ignorance why CoCa Cola gets away with that, else that Santa commercial would not be flying Hohoho
If I could give this post a million ❤️’s, I would. I agree with an earlier poster that you are fundamentally such a decent human being and we are beyond blessed to have your stack this past year - your humility and integrity personally gave me hope and your data driven science, undeniable.- Thanks to you, I don’t feel beat up by MSM - I feel empowered. Merry Christmas, Igor!!💯👍🏻❤️🎄🇺🇸
Interesting. 😊 I love the "Santa" mythology and its resulting traditions. I like to think it's our modern way of carrying on doing good - and anonymously so that gift-giving and joy is given purely gratuitously with no expectations of thanks and credit.
And despite being a very skeptical person (passed up the experimental jab), I believed in Santa for a looking time because my parents were very good at it. We had Christmas in 3 homes (2 grandparents plus our home) in 2 distant cities. Presents were never there when we left the house or entered the house - nor were they anywhere to be seen among the luggage. It was such a fun "conspiracy ", but I'm sure my parents were relieved when we caught on! 😅
It was fun believing in Santa, that was part of it, and one major differences between that and the vaccine, and the reaction to Covid. It really is benevolent, and it stirs the winds of the imagination. As a kid I would lay there and dream about all sorts of gifts I could have gotten from Santa. There were no boundaries of expense and even reality. You could ask for "wind" for Christmas and the idea of Santa was, you might receive it.
Since I was the oldest, it also introduced me to the fun of altruism...My dad allowed me to get up and help setup Christmas for my sister and brother. And it was great, building my sister's "kitchen" and even taking a few bites of cookie and milk.
Keeping the presents hidden is a huge challenge. My older son is an uber-tracker of gifts and now the cover story is that Santa cannot store all the gifts at the North Pole (way too many kids compared with hundreds of years ago) so he sometimes keeps some "at location". Worked so far but the side effect is that he is trying to catch an elf at it and he almost caught my wife putting a race car away.
When my daughter was 5 (she is now 6) she asked me if Santa was real. Rather than answering the question directly, I asked her what she thought. She would not answer. I couldn’t bring myself to lie to her, and I was trying to figure out a way to be truthful with her but also enjoy the fun aspect of Santa and Christmas gift giving. This year she asked me again. I once again asked her what she thought. She sadly said, I don’t think he’s real. With a year of contemplation, I answered back with the following. Hannah, Santa is real. I am Santa and Mommy is Santa too. Her eyes lit up so bright when she learned that Santa is us! We talked a little more. Now as it is Christmas Eve, she ran up to me and said, “I’m so glad you are Santa”! To me being truthful but also gentle to our children’s hearts is so important. I want my daughter to be a truth teller and also be sensitive to others in a way that builds people up! May the Lord bless you Igor😊
A few years ago, my youngest son comes home from school. I'm fairly sure it was Secondary school too, so he's maybe 12 or 13.. But anyway, we're chatting as to how was your day at school. He then tells us that he got in trouble during religion class. We ask why. Well he says, when the teacher asked him to comment on whatever the subject was, he said he couldn't, as he thought the "stories were a bit far fetched" from which, the teacher took issue.
I'm thinking to myself "well done son, have your own thoughts, and don't just lick it up. And what's more, fair dues for speaking up about it". 17 now, but still the same.
The nice/good conspiracies are based on real things. Is Santa real? Well, the dutch introduced Santa Claus here, as Saint Nicolas, his holiday is Dec. 6 and is celebrated on the evening of Dec. 5th. In dutch tradition he is from Spain, in reality he is from Myra Turkey where he was a bishop looking after the poor especially kids. (Oh and it is celebrated here with Christmas, else it would be way to close to Thanksgiving)
1. You speak English better than most of the folks I know that grew up in the USA! Actually, that's true of a couple of Netherlanders that I've met.
2. One of the very, very few things about the Covid Panic that has actually been good, is that it has brought many folks from all over the world together as we fight the evil side of it. I've "met" more really good people from other countries while discussing the current "state of affairs" than any other way.
When my children would ask if Santa was real, I would smile at them and tell them I didn’t really know for sure because I hadn’t ever actually seen him. And then I would ask them what they think and then I would listen to them. If they were old enough to have doubts, they could tell I was confirming their doubts but letting them know that it was okay to keep pretending and having fun with it. I’ve never actually asked my grown up kids if it was a dramatic let down but I think they figured it out without much drama and then had fun playing along with younger kids.
I don’t know if it was the best way to deal with it but it seemed to be a happy medium between the cold hard truth and total fantasy with elaborate lies. I didn’t play it up and tell stories and things but I didn’t stop them from believing if they wanted to.
Thanks for all your work in exposing the truth of what’s going on through the pandemic response!
I can still hear the bell 🛎️!!Good sign.. don’t need a hearing aid yet ! ... Thank you Igor for all your in depth data analysis and being real and being you! Hope your ankle is feeling better ... Merry Christmas to you and yours ! 🤗🎄💥PS..miss a picture of your dog!
Interesting people never run out of things to talk about and this substack is full of them!! I just came home from the boringest family dinner in the history of the world. Want to know the secret to avoiding this issue? Ask fucking questions! Thank goodness Igor and the rest of you keep asking good questions. I would have much rather had Christmas dinner with any number of you! Happy holidays to everyone. Have a blessed and beautiful celebration!🌟
When you are a child, you believe in magic. You believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, Cinderella. It goes with the territory, as a child's brain has not matured to that point. Realizing that Santa is not real is a developmental achievement, and I think for most it was a relatively untraumatic event. When my older grandson made the realization, he was so proud to have stepped into the world of adults. He went out of his way to show his younger brother that Santa is real, wink wink! However, being in touch with the part of ourselves that once was a believer is the stuff of fantasy and all kinds of creativity. In some ways I think that is what makes life worth living. Gotta go, I think Santa just landed on my roof and I gotta put out the cookies and carrots! Merry Christmas!
I don't believe my parents ever tried to fool me into believing in Santa Claus. But they did share the story The Emperor's New Clothes, illustrating how a child can see through the falsehoods that can fool adults. I always loved that story and aspired to be like that child. Perhaps that's why I had no trouble seeing through this
Merry Christmas, Igor!
You are such a fundamentally decent human being. Thank you for all of your efforts. You played a big role in my early days of researching this stuff even before I was here on Stack.
God Bless you and God Bless your family.
Merry Christmas to you Sage, and I love it when your posts show up in my inbox.
https://imgflip.com/i/75fzok
We will never run out of things to discuss 😹
I have thought about the deception of Santa, too. It was fun as a child, but I was devastated when my mother told me the truth. Not because I was sad about Santa not being real, but because she had lied to me. I felt betrayed. Trust was ruptured. It healed over quickly, of course, but encouraging parents to tell lies to children doesn't seem like a healthy practice for psychological and emotional development, especially considering that trust issues can run deep and impact relationships throughout your life.
An amazing story in many ways -- goes on to show that everyone is created in a unique way!
I went to live with my grandparents when I was six. My grandmother promptly told me that there was no Santa Claus. My young friends thought I was lying and that I was crazy. It was good early training on the consequences of being a conspiracy theorist.
Good one!
You're choking me up. Hope you enjoy the season and have great one at that!
that is why we should not tell kids these nonsense stories. Isn't the return of the LIght reason for a feast enough? and presents, well, why would mom and dad not be ablte to give them ! No lies.
As Igor wrote, the stories may make one a better critical thinker.
My mother told me I would birth a watermelon if I persisted in eating the seeds instead of spitting them. I was 6 and had swallowed probably 50. I worried for a whole summer about growing a watermelon in my stomach. Still mad. Haha.
I’m sorry you worried all summer, that’s an eternity for a kid. I did laugh out loud though.
"If you eat raw potatoes, you'll get worms."
That was my grandmother. Even at age six, I was wondering how in the heck worms got into raw potatoes in the first place, and why wouldn't you see them?
Worms start out small like humans do.
They aren't likely to be seen when they are microscopic.
The worms crawl in the worms crawl out, in your body and out of your mouth. Whenever you see a hurse go bye you know that someday you are going to die.
I was reading a story about worms to my 2.5 year old granddaughter tonight and starting reflexively singing that song. Hah. Caught myself.
Seeing a hurse go by is completely unnecessary to know one will one day die.
Do you mean hearse?
You may not get worms, but you will get poisoned by solanine!
It is best to avoid nightshades, but few know what they are.
Best for whom? I have absolutely Z-E-R-O problem with nightshade family foods. Speak for yourself before making such wildly general blanket "truisms." Sheesh-- I thought everyone learned that one back in high school, but apparently not, judging from how this country votes...
That could actually be 100% true, though. Like if you eat undercooked meat, esp. pork.
Meat is not potatoes, though.
Yeah but it's not an outrageous lie at all and your doubts were unfounded. Also from eating uncooked vegetables, for example, you can get worms if it got contaminated with a grazing animal's droppings.
I'm still waiting for an apple tree to grow inside me from eating the pips...
🤣
I hope that you didn't think I was being glib! I wasn't. I think parents do not realize the importance of truth and forthrightness. Parents sometimes forget they are the shield protecting them. If the shield chips...
Merry Christmas dear lady.
Not at all—I thought your example was hilarious but also a reminder about how seriously kids take things!
Merry Christmas back, Raptor!
Thanks for sharing Margaret. I agree that lying to children is not something to take lightly. If we’re lying about Santa, what else are we lying about?
My parents never told me that Santa was real and I grew up feeling sorry for kids whose parents lied to them. I also don’t teach the myth to my kids. They know he’s a made up character who does cool stuff, kinda like the avengers.
I’ve been on a journey of awakening for about as long as I can remember. A big part of it is gaining a true understanding of what is true wealth - where does it lie and how do we acquire it. When we can stop, breathe and appreciate, at this moment we become instantly fulfilled…. And isn’t this what we all aspire for. The things I treasure the most are the ones that were given to me with sincere love; and the times I’ve given my time attention energy etc toward the supreme being that is running this show are when I’ve felt closest to the heart.
A quote from a guide I stumbled upon ages ago:
If you wish to be strong, become humble
If you want to be wealthy, become generous
If you want to be wise, be simple
Much like what Jesus said on his Sermon on the Mount. It can be found in the New Testament of the Bible in the book of Matthew chapters 5-7. When you study what things like "poor in spirit" and "meek" mean, it is very convicting. Helps you right the ship.
Enjoy your search Jeff. Hope it leads to Christ.
Agreed. I have come to believe that the Santa myth is quite sinister.
At an early age we are told about a magical powerful being that knows what you are thinking, whether you have been bad or good, bestows gifts or unpleasantries (coal) depending on your behaviour.
Then you learn he is a lie.
Who else do you know with very similar attributes….God.
What does that breed in children but a suspicion that God is also a lie. Fool me once….
So we set up our children on a hard path away from God.
Then there are the other facets of “Santa’”, anagram for Satan. Satan Claws. Yes and what is Satan’s greatest trick. Why it’s to make men believe he does not exist.
No. I’m no fan of Santa.
Sheesh!
Interesting. I grew up in Germany of dutch parents that lived through a war of course, but my dad worked for the US blah blah blah. We never believed in Santa at Christmas !!!
It was not until we moved to the US that I learned of him, I was 11 years old when we came to the US
St Nicholas or Sinterklaas came on December 6 and was a completely different meaning and the beloved Zwarte Piet as well!
I know that my dear hubby grew up in the mid west and Santa was a big deal. I can imagine the devastation!!!
indeed ! In Belgium where I grew up, we had Santa on December 6, which is also my birthday, and the legend we were told was of a saint (who might or might not be real) He saved 3 children from a gruesome death, I think they were thrown in an oven. At Christmas, we did not exchange presents. We did give presents for New Year though, and Sinterklaas was mostly for sweets and candy. I remember getting a mixed present for the obvious reason - two in one!
My sister and her friend got switches in kindergarten when all of the rest got chocolate. It was pretty funny,
Happy December Birthday Ingrid. Mine is on the 8th!
I have read so many stories about people who feel the same way about discovering the truth. We never did Santa with our daughter. We just never wanted to deceive her - plus, we wanted the emphasis to be on Christ. She still enjoyed seeing Santa in cartoons, etc... but she knew that Santa was just a character like SpongeBob or Clifford. She is now a staunch conservative who is suspicious of all government entities. No Santa was a good idea in our house :-)
Gift giving was created. Same as Valentine’s Day. For some “Hallmark Holidays “. And for some a reminder to show appreciation for those you love. Those who don’t like them may not show appreciation. Maybe the only time that significant other gets acknowledged. They do serve a purpose. Maybe not everyone needs them. But some do.
True and simple, Amen!
Agreed. Not only have the parents lied but the teachers, grandparents and likely every adult the child once trusted.
I found this video on the myth of Santa rather interesting. If you really think about the myth Santa Claus comes across as rather creepy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzYAxpfC6bA
Yes. I’m afraid to say Santa myth is not great for many children who grow up thinking about presents at Xmas as a substitute for the loss of innocence caused by the realisation that those closest to you will lie to you again snd again even when you suspect that there is a lie.
Satan Claws is my take on him. The deceiver takes your faith away.
My wife thinks I’m nuts whenever I tell her this but it correlates well with the slow decay in belief in Christ.
That experience may have made you who you are - adults don't always tell the truth. Not then and not now.
I recall my daughter (~5 or 6 years) asking is Santa real? And I said what do you think? She said he might not be real, just like the tooth fairy. And I simply told the story of how Santa came to be. That Santa was just a mythical figure to bring us joy. We believe in the spirit of Santa and a tradition. Cookies continued to be put out for Santa for many years afterwards. I have no idea what she told her kids who may have their own maybe.
Agreed. Very young kids are very trusting because they're so completely helpless and dependent on adults for their survival. They do and want to believe in goodness and kindness, that someone special IS looking out for their best interests. They need that kind of trustworthiness from the people who are around them. Kids start noticing the "joke" some time around second or third grade. I found out at school. It was something groups of kids at school would discuss and I think older kids would make fun of younger kids who still believed in Santa Claus. I wondered "why all the pretense, can't we just say it's a special time of year when we all show kindness and give one another gifts in the spirit of Christmas?" Mostly I felt like I wanted to know the psychology of adults who had this need to tell kids this myth, why would they do such a thing, en masse?
In a way I think it's a kind of annual mass psychosis.
Yes, I too was bothered by the "deception" when I found out Santa wasn't real. So when I had kids, I told them the story of the historical St Nicholas and told them at Christmas, we like to pretend he is still around, still giving gifts to the children. So we kept the fun of Santa without the deception. Worked for us!
How beautiful!
Great idea. Alas too late for me but maybe when 'the conversation' is had finally, I can share that so my boys have the choice to do that when if they go on to have children. I didn't know about St Nicholas until after we had started.
Brilliant solution, CindyLou!
I can't remember when Santa was anything more than an advertising vehicle to me.
A scar never really heals, especially when it continues to develop.
Everyone in government is paid to lie to their subjects, even when they are gullible and ignorant to be true believers.
Me too. You describe it far more eloquently than I was able.
I think the problem is that today we have divorced the Santa Claus myth from the greater religious celebration that occurred during the holidays. The Santa Claus myth blended into the religious event of God made Man at the birth of Jesus, which is something else that requires belief. There are many other stories and myths surrounding Christmas that are part of our old European culture and many other cultures. To understand the Santa Claus myth, you must understand its origins within Christianity. However, standing alone in a modern, post-Christian culture it obviously appears to be an incongruous conspiracy theory. Taken out of context it makes no sense, just as myriad genders and "celebrating diversity" would make no sense 150 years ago. The Santa Claus myth is a type of cultural symbolism relevant mostly to Western Christianity.
The Santa Claus myth is based on pre-Christian paganism.
Not really. Go and study St. Nicholas, please.
How does one study the long since dead?
The way everyone else does. Sheesh. So you'd think Bible study is worthless. Well, either you're just plain dumb or you're dumb on purpose while pretending to drop us your pearls of "wisdom."
Santa is a "religious" ritual unto itself and doesn't need more.
It just needs to not become a commercialized. Not a way to pressure parents into buying too elaborate gifts.
No. You got it wrong. COMMERCIALISM is the "religion" and Saint Nicholas, i.e. "Santa Claus," is a prop.
The Santa Claus myth is not a religious ritual unto itself. It must be anchored to a value system. 200 years ago St. Nick (German: Nicklaus=Klaus=Claus) was firmly anchored in Christianity. Since that time the anchor has switched to commercial materialism. Christmas and Santa Claus can't stand by themselves. They will always be subject to the current zeitgeist and cast in it's image. In the future it may shift to something else - my bet is state politics. With a few changes, Santa has all the hallmarks of a children's myth for autoritarian governments as an agent of the state: He know what everyone does and he has a list. He rewards the good obedient people by giving them free stuff. He no longer has a magical workshop at the North Pole, but instead has a magical money creating workshop in Washington DC. The same belief and obedience lessons that Igor says motivate the original Santa Claus myth can also motivate the political one.
St. Nicholas was a Christian living in what is now Turkey. And that was more than a mere 200 years ago.
Interesting take on the future of Santa. But all religious festivals ar subject to the zeitgeist. Thing is, religious festivals don't really need anchors, much less Christian ones. They're just things people continue doing.
I disagree. All religious festivals need anchors, otherwise they dissappear. There are thousands of religious festivals that have disappeared. You can find plenty of them in Roman and Greek literature. Festivals remain if they change to the new anchors as the cultures change. Even though it remains relevant, Christmas has moved from a pagan winter solstice ritual, to a Christian ritual, to a Commercial Materialist ritual. My point about Santa Claus is that in the future it could switch anchors to become a Political Materialist ritual. A change in anchors results in a change in MEANING. If you were ask young people today and young people 200 years ago if they knew what Christmas was, they would all say yes. But if you asked them the MEANING of Christmas, the two groups would give you very different answers. The anchor, and thus the underlying values represented by the ritual have changed. There are certain religious archetypes that are repeated throught almost all cultures that never really go away such as remembrance of the dead. If a religious ritual is important enough, it will be shifted to a new anchor or recreated as a culture changes.
"Thing is, religious festivals don't really need anchors, much less Christian ones. They're just things people continue doing." You're talking to yourself here. Because for the most part the people "continue doing" religious festivals understand why they repeat the rituals. If you know anything about Catholicism and the Mass, you'd know exactly what that means..
I don't think people really "understand" why they carry out most of their festivals and traditions. Perhaps this is more true in non-protestant areas.
How would one not commercialize something that began with a Coca-Cola ad featuring Santa Claus?
In Uber-capitalistic countries, of course-- they'd also find a way to pickle and commercialize your skin cancers. I mean, "they're" already getting farmers to cover their farm land with sewage sludge! Then you eat the food grown there? Ya suppose? I think you can figure out what I'm sayin.'
Since there are no "Uber-capitalistic countries," I can only guess.
Wow, you are actually a provocating troll. What the **** are you doing here?
Haha that's not the beginning :) It began at the very least as far back as the Middle Ages.
That's not the beginning of your hallucination?
Wait a minute, Santa isn't real?
Totally real
Just as real as SARS-CoV-2.
There you go again....
Are you unable to keep up?
Of course he is. How could there be any doubt?
No he is, see above
You are part of the 21%!
21 percent of US adults believe in Santa Claus: poll
https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/arts-culture/3776683-21-percent-of-u-s-adults-believe-in-santa-claus-poll/
He is real, as shown in the documentary "Elf"
Also Miracle on 34th Street.
I've never seen this movie,but people rave about it...worthwhile?
I am a huge fan of the movie. It has such great lines as
"I like smiling smiling is my favorite."
Response from manager: "Make work your new favorite."
Scene where Buddy smelling the department store Santa:
"You sit on a throne of lies, you smell of meat and cheese."
Zoey Deschanel singing "Baby It's Cold Outside.
The narration of Bob Newhart.
Will Farrell looking at New York City with the eyes of an innocent child in a forty year olds body.
The liberal use of profanity like the phrase...and I don't want to offend people here... "Cotton Headed Ninny Moggins."
I could go on, but I love with movie.
James Caan plays a great "straight man" in this one.
I might get some "spoiler alert" comments, but I really don't think I gave too much away.
Maybe I'll rent it today! Thank you for this 😁
If more people knew the history of traditions, it would be much higher
I believe in your case, you are saying he was real. But I am talking about Coca Cola swilling Santa Claus.
Yes I wrote a post somewhere up there, where the tradition originates from. Well they do, BUT if everyone knew that he's actually a Roman Catholic bishop[ that existed, it would probably be considered politically incorrect and inappropriate. :) So it's probably ignorance why CoCa Cola gets away with that, else that Santa commercial would not be flying Hohoho
LOLOLOL.
Shocking!
He is a imaginary character supposed based on an imaginary Catholic deity.
...and maybe YOU are, too.... (bot)....
This bot will ignore your butt.
Good, because YOURS here creates an unmistakable STINK...
You'd stink more if your head wasn't blocking your rectum.
WARNING: TROLL ALERT!!:
PROFESSIONAL TROUBLE MAKER-STINKER INVADER COMMENT APPEARING ABOVE. THIS TROUBLE MAKER IS HERE TO MAKE A STINK!!
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If I could give this post a million ❤️’s, I would. I agree with an earlier poster that you are fundamentally such a decent human being and we are beyond blessed to have your stack this past year - your humility and integrity personally gave me hope and your data driven science, undeniable.- Thanks to you, I don’t feel beat up by MSM - I feel empowered. Merry Christmas, Igor!!💯👍🏻❤️🎄🇺🇸
Ah thank you so much and Merry Christmas to you
Perfectly said.
Bravo! My kind of post!!
Interesting. 😊 I love the "Santa" mythology and its resulting traditions. I like to think it's our modern way of carrying on doing good - and anonymously so that gift-giving and joy is given purely gratuitously with no expectations of thanks and credit.
And despite being a very skeptical person (passed up the experimental jab), I believed in Santa for a looking time because my parents were very good at it. We had Christmas in 3 homes (2 grandparents plus our home) in 2 distant cities. Presents were never there when we left the house or entered the house - nor were they anywhere to be seen among the luggage. It was such a fun "conspiracy ", but I'm sure my parents were relieved when we caught on! 😅
Yeah I remember doing that too - the look of the kids was precious
It was fun believing in Santa, that was part of it, and one major differences between that and the vaccine, and the reaction to Covid. It really is benevolent, and it stirs the winds of the imagination. As a kid I would lay there and dream about all sorts of gifts I could have gotten from Santa. There were no boundaries of expense and even reality. You could ask for "wind" for Christmas and the idea of Santa was, you might receive it.
Since I was the oldest, it also introduced me to the fun of altruism...My dad allowed me to get up and help setup Christmas for my sister and brother. And it was great, building my sister's "kitchen" and even taking a few bites of cookie and milk.
Keeping the presents hidden is a huge challenge. My older son is an uber-tracker of gifts and now the cover story is that Santa cannot store all the gifts at the North Pole (way too many kids compared with hundreds of years ago) so he sometimes keeps some "at location". Worked so far but the side effect is that he is trying to catch an elf at it and he almost caught my wife putting a race car away.
What you could do...is hide "false flag" gifts. And then try to claim you are Santa...use reverse psychology.
mmmn ... no.
This is hilarious!
I love that they went to such lengths! Made me smile reading that. Thank you for sharing!
I know I was - I had two critical thinkers who used to try to trip me up 😂😂
"and anonymously so that gift-giving and joy is given purely gratuitously with no expectations of thanks and credit"
This is a really good point. Will implement it somehow.
When my daughter was 5 (she is now 6) she asked me if Santa was real. Rather than answering the question directly, I asked her what she thought. She would not answer. I couldn’t bring myself to lie to her, and I was trying to figure out a way to be truthful with her but also enjoy the fun aspect of Santa and Christmas gift giving. This year she asked me again. I once again asked her what she thought. She sadly said, I don’t think he’s real. With a year of contemplation, I answered back with the following. Hannah, Santa is real. I am Santa and Mommy is Santa too. Her eyes lit up so bright when she learned that Santa is us! We talked a little more. Now as it is Christmas Eve, she ran up to me and said, “I’m so glad you are Santa”! To me being truthful but also gentle to our children’s hearts is so important. I want my daughter to be a truth teller and also be sensitive to others in a way that builds people up! May the Lord bless you Igor😊
Wishing you all the best !
Great minds? I did much the same with my daughter. Son was in his own world (Mom might have be the bearer of the news).
Kind of Santa related.........
A few years ago, my youngest son comes home from school. I'm fairly sure it was Secondary school too, so he's maybe 12 or 13.. But anyway, we're chatting as to how was your day at school. He then tells us that he got in trouble during religion class. We ask why. Well he says, when the teacher asked him to comment on whatever the subject was, he said he couldn't, as he thought the "stories were a bit far fetched" from which, the teacher took issue.
I'm thinking to myself "well done son, have your own thoughts, and don't just lick it up. And what's more, fair dues for speaking up about it". 17 now, but still the same.
It is great to see our kids develop their own thinking!
"One year, I remember asking my older son quietly, “what do you know about Santa.” “Santa is fake,” was his answer. "
... he was in his early 50s at the time :P...
The nice/good conspiracies are based on real things. Is Santa real? Well, the dutch introduced Santa Claus here, as Saint Nicolas, his holiday is Dec. 6 and is celebrated on the evening of Dec. 5th. In dutch tradition he is from Spain, in reality he is from Myra Turkey where he was a bishop looking after the poor especially kids. (Oh and it is celebrated here with Christmas, else it would be way to close to Thanksgiving)
Ron, when I was old enough to ask questions, yours is the answer I was given. Santa Claus is very real as based upon the real Saint Nicolas!
Oh and btw; The name Santa Claus came from the dutch word Sinterklaas. Little dutch kids have a hard time pronouncing "Sint Nicolaas"
I did NOT know that one! Thanks - and a very Merry Christmas or [with more than a little help from Google Translator] Vrolijk kerstfeest to you!
I learned a little German in High School, but, alas, no Dutch other than some of their wonderful stories!
Yes indeed it is Vrolijk Kerstfeest, ook wel Zalig Kerstfeest. I grew up in the Netherlands. I speak German, Dutch and a little English
a very Merry Christmas to you too!
Two things:
1. You speak English better than most of the folks I know that grew up in the USA! Actually, that's true of a couple of Netherlanders that I've met.
2. One of the very, very few things about the Covid Panic that has actually been good, is that it has brought many folks from all over the world together as we fight the evil side of it. I've "met" more really good people from other countries while discussing the current "state of affairs" than any other way.
well thank you, dankjewel, dat is nice of you to say!
Oh yes, Randy. I feel the same way.
Frohe Weihnachten, Ron 😊
... und einen guten rutsch
yup, so yes he's real.
So wait, Coca Cola Santa isn't real?
When my children would ask if Santa was real, I would smile at them and tell them I didn’t really know for sure because I hadn’t ever actually seen him. And then I would ask them what they think and then I would listen to them. If they were old enough to have doubts, they could tell I was confirming their doubts but letting them know that it was okay to keep pretending and having fun with it. I’ve never actually asked my grown up kids if it was a dramatic let down but I think they figured it out without much drama and then had fun playing along with younger kids.
I don’t know if it was the best way to deal with it but it seemed to be a happy medium between the cold hard truth and total fantasy with elaborate lies. I didn’t play it up and tell stories and things but I didn’t stop them from believing if they wanted to.
Thanks for all your work in exposing the truth of what’s going on through the pandemic response!
Brandy that was an elegant way to handle things.
Those who don’t believe in Santa get underwear for Christmas.... (I’ve got this sign in my house:)
:-)
Well, for some people that could be good actually.
I can still hear the bell 🛎️!!Good sign.. don’t need a hearing aid yet ! ... Thank you Igor for all your in depth data analysis and being real and being you! Hope your ankle is feeling better ... Merry Christmas to you and yours ! 🤗🎄💥PS..miss a picture of your dog!
Thank you! :-)
Interesting people never run out of things to talk about and this substack is full of them!! I just came home from the boringest family dinner in the history of the world. Want to know the secret to avoiding this issue? Ask fucking questions! Thank goodness Igor and the rest of you keep asking good questions. I would have much rather had Christmas dinner with any number of you! Happy holidays to everyone. Have a blessed and beautiful celebration!🌟
This comment section IS our virtual Christmas dinner :-)
Getting wine right now
What a great idea!
Merry Christmas.
thanks for being such a great teacher, igor. your kids are so lucky to have you.
When you are a child, you believe in magic. You believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, Cinderella. It goes with the territory, as a child's brain has not matured to that point. Realizing that Santa is not real is a developmental achievement, and I think for most it was a relatively untraumatic event. When my older grandson made the realization, he was so proud to have stepped into the world of adults. He went out of his way to show his younger brother that Santa is real, wink wink! However, being in touch with the part of ourselves that once was a believer is the stuff of fantasy and all kinds of creativity. In some ways I think that is what makes life worth living. Gotta go, I think Santa just landed on my roof and I gotta put out the cookies and carrots! Merry Christmas!
There you go!!!
I don't believe my parents ever tried to fool me into believing in Santa Claus. But they did share the story The Emperor's New Clothes, illustrating how a child can see through the falsehoods that can fool adults. I always loved that story and aspired to be like that child. Perhaps that's why I had no trouble seeing through this